tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post3483194481834362227..comments2024-03-28T09:14:52.110+00:00Comments on Sinclair's Musings: Leaving the countryMatthew Sinclairhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05948452770723874618noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-468736680333795322008-02-26T17:17:00.000+00:002008-02-26T17:17:00.000+00:00Donpaskini,The NIESR, here: http://www.parliament....Donpaskini,<BR/><BR/>The NIESR, here: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/EA205%20NIESR.doc, confirm that immigrants are concentrated in low skilled professions. They will exacerbate, rather than compensate for, the loss of high-skilled workers to immigration. Graduate figures can be distorting because there is a huge skilled workforce in the UK without a degree as the numbers going to university only recently ramped up. You're overemphasising formal education.<BR/><BR/>I don't think the revealed preferences story you tell stands up. After all, Americans, Canadians and Australians all have the same opportunities to go elsewhere. They don't leave in the same numbers. That our country is an improvement for, for example, poor Pakistanis doesn't seem like much of an achievement. As such, relative to developed countries the revealed preferences suggest Britain has real problems.Matthew Sinclairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05948452770723874618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-13900235524538806562008-02-26T01:12:00.000+00:002008-02-26T01:12:00.000+00:00Matt,I'd be interested to see your numbers about i...Matt,<BR/><BR/>I'd be interested to see your numbers about immigrants being disproportionately low skilled. The OECD found that 34.8% of foreign born workers living in Britain had a higher education qualification, compared to 20.1% of Britons. From the OECD figures that you cite in your post, just over a third of the Britons living abroad are graduates (just over 1.1M out of about 3.25M).<BR/><BR/>To be fair, there are questions about whether having a degree is really a sign of being a skilled worker, and the changing nature of the labour market means that Britain needs more skilled workers than ever before. There is also a real problem with migrant workers who are employed in jobs which are well below their skill level.<BR/><BR/>But I think that revealed preference overall tells a good story about Britain in 2008, one where millions of Brits have the opportunity to go and work wherever in the world they want to, and where an even greater number of skilled workers from all over the world (first as well as third world) want to come here to work. It certainly doesn't support the conclusion that this is a government trying to do too much and doing a poor job of it.donpaskinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05963534291677598324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-35815697762872875012008-02-25T04:28:00.000+00:002008-02-25T04:28:00.000+00:00Polish Immigrant said, "If Obama wins and manages ...Polish Immigrant said, "If Obama wins and manages to implement his policies,... Where will I go? Switzerland?<BR/><BR/>He doesn't sound like much of an American but rather more like a foreign mercenary who shows loyalty only to making money. <BR/><BR/>America gives him a new home, a refugee from his then communist Poland, but he will move on to another land that pays better or has lower taxes. If past immigrants were of this type, America never would have become great. <BR/><BR/>Instead of working to change the system or working to save his "adopted" homeland from falling into ruin, Polish "immigrant" (Polish Mercenary)has stated that he will just bail out.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure glad that not all Americans share this attitude.<BR/><BR/>But too many recent immigrants do.<BR/>(To Polish Immigrant's credit, he has learned English and adapted very well, it is even more a shame that he wishes to bail out of his adopted nation when times get tough instead of being here for the long-haul. I wish all immigrants had his attitudes, except for the America-is-a-place-to-make-money, not a home, belief system)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-33514542804549801542008-02-24T23:07:00.000+00:002008-02-24T23:07:00.000+00:00Donpaskini,You're completely ignoring my argument ...Donpaskini,<BR/><BR/>You're completely ignoring my argument so I'm not sure it's worth continuing this but I'll try again. Your use of the absolute numnbers is misleading. Those who are entering the country are disproportionately low skilled (there are numbers for this) whereas those who are leaving are disproportionately high skilled. As such, even if there are absolutely more skilled people in the country (as the population goes up with immigration) we will have a lower portion of our population skilled.<BR/><BR/>If you can't understand that then stop being so arrogant in your approach to my arguments.<BR/><BR/>As to the final section of my piece. Yes, it was assertion. This is a blog and not every post is a treatise. Sometimes I'm just recording my thoughts. I do have both logic and some evidence to back up some of my assertions but I didn't include it here. That's for another day with more time.<BR/><BR/>Meg, I'm glad you like the picture. I love it.Matthew Sinclairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05948452770723874618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-34038606411419436082008-02-24T20:59:00.000+00:002008-02-24T20:59:00.000+00:00The statement that 'we are left with an average lo...The statement that 'we are left with an average lower level of skill' is just an assertion (even supposing you could work out how to measure this). More graduates are moving to the UK (from all parts of the world, not just developing countries) than the number who are leaving.<BR/><BR/>I think it is good that British graduates are able to choose where in the world they want to work. You don't seem to have any actual evidence about why they are not working in Britain, just a list of things that you personally don't like about Britain. I could equally well argue that the much maligned British education system can't be so bad if it is producing all these people able to find highly skilled and paid work in the international labour market.<BR/><BR/>If it resulted in a shortage of graduates, that would be something to worry about, but it clearly isn't.donpaskinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05963534291677598324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-91354385705052381822008-02-24T17:00:00.000+00:002008-02-24T17:00:00.000+00:00I'm afraid that cato was right in his earlier comm...I'm afraid that cato was right in his earlier comment that <I>"most of the Brits I meet who've moved to the U.S. bring their pro-statist, pro-multiculti attitudes with them. Like most liberal yuppies, there is a disconnect between what they prefer for themselves (low taxes, economic freedom), and what they support in terms of government policy."</I> That is exactly the same story for many people in the US who leave states like Massachusetts, New York, and California, only to land in less expensive states like North Carolina, Nevada, and Montana and then demand the same policies from which they fled. I really believe that they don't see the connection between the policies and the results.Biffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18077565129056607925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-24124394175551492532008-02-24T03:14:00.000+00:002008-02-24T03:14:00.000+00:00DEFINITELY not wading into this discussion, but I ...DEFINITELY not wading into this discussion, but I just wanted to say I really like the photo you used in this entry.Meghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03647941828092652736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-80765253561895501802008-02-23T21:49:00.000+00:002008-02-23T21:49:00.000+00:00Donpaskini,Where's the anecdote? There's an asser...Donpaskini,<BR/><BR/>Where's the anecdote? There's an assertion but that's very different to an anecdote.<BR/><BR/>Also, your comparison of raw number in the immigrant population and emigrant population is unfair. There are more immigrants.<BR/><BR/>We're losing Britain's best and brightest. We're then getting a lot more people. Some of those are skilled but a lower rate (most immigrants are low skilled - see the archive on this). The two processes leave our population with a significantly lower average level of skill.<BR/><BR/>Plus, as scottnyx says it doesn't seem much of an achievement to be the mid-point that the poor world want to enter but existing citizens want to leave. We shouldn't be some kind of mid-point.Matthew Sinclairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05948452770723874618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-30545938579947541152008-02-23T19:00:00.000+00:002008-02-23T19:00:00.000+00:00Fine comment Cato but, I fear you may live in one ...Fine comment Cato but, I fear you may live in one of those areas where the ex-pat Brits tend to 'huddle'. I do not, oh sure, there are plenty here but aside from the odd visual clue we have all gone native. Yes you notice the ones who have not integrated, those of us who have are more difficult to spot until we open our mouths. Just for any American friends reading this, NO! I don't understand the rules of cricket either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-24999688751995243642008-02-23T17:46:00.000+00:002008-02-23T17:46:00.000+00:00donpaskini writes: "there are more graduates comin...donpaskini writes: "there are more graduates coming to live in Britain than the number leaving for other countries"<BR/><BR/>So Britain is still a better place for skilled graduates than third world countries are. We are supposed to be impressed with that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-4056532812289765742008-02-23T13:18:00.000+00:002008-02-23T13:18:00.000+00:00What you don't mention is that there are more grad...What you don't mention is that there are more graduates coming to live in Britain than the number leaving for other countries.<BR/><BR/>I liked how you explained that economists try to avoid using personal anecdote as an explanation, and then explained why people are moving abroad by, um, referring to an anecdote.donpaskinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05963534291677598324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-49459395426491464472008-02-23T00:55:00.000+00:002008-02-23T00:55:00.000+00:00With all due respect to Nikrite, most of the Brits...With all due respect to Nikrite, most of the Brits I meet who've moved to the U.S. bring their pro-statist, pro-multiculti attitudes with them. Like most liberal yuppies, there is a disconnect between what they prefer for themselves (low taxes, economic freedom), and what they support in terms of government policy.<BR/><BR/>My pet theory on this: Because most (again, pace Nikrite) are atheistic or agnostic, they use politics as a form of absolution for their sense of guilt over their personal success.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-46542422110448311952008-02-22T22:03:00.000+00:002008-02-22T22:03:00.000+00:00They don't want to live in Londonistan.They don't want to live in Londonistan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-55780112225590663362008-02-22T21:10:00.000+00:002008-02-22T21:10:00.000+00:00This is truly tragic, as the history of freedom is...This is truly tragic, as the history of freedom is told in English. The Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, and "Common Sense" are in English and this is not an accident. Patrick Henry screamed for liberty in English. Adam Smith and John Locke were from the Isles. The Founding Fathers were only a few generations removed from England. Benjamin Franklin was dismayed at the level of freedom in England, yet he acknowledged it to be the best in Europe.<BR/><BR/>William Wilberforce's native tongue was not French, Spanish, Portugese, Russian, Chinese or Arabic. Speaking as an American, if the cradle of liberty, England, wills away its freedoms, it will be very sad. Just let us rebury Churchill here, in his mother's country, so he doesn't have to lie buried under tyranny.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-27267361723595353392008-02-22T21:08:00.000+00:002008-02-22T21:08:00.000+00:00Ever since Benny Hill died, the country just hasn'...Ever since Benny Hill died, the country just hasn't been the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-66982658136476280672008-02-22T19:22:00.000+00:002008-02-22T19:22:00.000+00:00Left Poland 20 years ago. Moved to US. Started a...Left Poland 20 years ago. Moved to US. Started at $6/hr, making 6 figures now. If Obama wins and manages to implement his policies, I will be paying more than 50% of what I make in taxes. I will be half-enslaved by the state. Where will I go? Switzerland?Polish Immigranthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03267225551001691481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-36678665128862345402008-02-22T18:47:00.000+00:002008-02-22T18:47:00.000+00:00So this is why we have to put up with Andrew Sulli...So this is why we have to put up with Andrew Sullivan?Jim Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912710881278409532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-38725145370190121212008-02-22T18:26:00.000+00:002008-02-22T18:26:00.000+00:00As one of those who left the UK, for love though n...As one of those who left the UK, for love though not economics. I look across the ocean and am fearful of what is becoming of England. I choose not to use UK wisely because asde from all else it is in danger of fragmentation. As an American and proud now,I would urge all to be vigilant that we do not slide into socialist multicultural political correctness. We are the USA we are Christian, speak English and uphold our traditional values despite those who decry any and all of these things. GOD BLESS AMERICA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-19107965912822072552008-02-22T17:27:00.000+00:002008-02-22T17:27:00.000+00:00I urge all skilled non-socialist English who want ...I urge all skilled non-socialist English who want to leave to come to America. You will be warmly welcomed. Become a citizen and then warn your fellow Americans of the fate that befell your former country.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-66477776452787896272008-02-22T17:18:00.000+00:002008-02-22T17:18:00.000+00:00No need for Ellis Island. Let them fly to Mexico,...No need for Ellis Island. Let them fly to Mexico, and they can then walk across the border.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-85392176086610748352008-02-22T17:08:00.000+00:002008-02-22T17:08:00.000+00:00I predicted this a couple years ago. We'll start ...I predicted this a couple years ago. We'll start seeing it from other Western European nations. Time to re-open Ellis Island.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-12257521711707985142008-02-22T17:04:00.000+00:002008-02-22T17:04:00.000+00:004:55 PM,It's called rational self-interest or self...4:55 PM,<BR/><BR/>It's called rational self-interest or self-preservation, or maybe even enlightened self-interest if those leaving think it will bring their countrymen to their senses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-31185727412432479642008-02-22T16:55:00.000+00:002008-02-22T16:55:00.000+00:00Why would a country's best and brightest be willin...Why would a country's best and brightest be willing participants in that country's suicide?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-85604350781943147212008-02-22T16:49:00.000+00:002008-02-22T16:49:00.000+00:00Let's just go ahead and use the M Word. Many Bri...Let's just go ahead and use the M Word. Many Britons are leaving because they don't want to live under the reign of idiotic political correctness and civilizational self loathing that is slowly but surely turning the UK into the "Islamic Republic of Britain".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21959228.post-18996664411498258822008-02-22T16:45:00.000+00:002008-02-22T16:45:00.000+00:00It's not their country anyway, it belongs to the M...It's not their country anyway, it belongs to the Mexicans.<BR/><BR/>-TypicalproillegalhalfwitAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com